🎀 Danny Page - on being non-binary - just accept me as me & leave me the fuck alone 🎀
🎀 The reason I reached out to you is because I'm working on a project around fragments of identity & when I saw your social media post I thought it was so moving. I'd love to hear from you what made you feel compelled to write that post, what's been going on for you & how did it come about?
So, I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the state of the entire world right now & how everything is at the moment for being a queer, trans person in general - it’s not fun.
I think being the way I am as a non-binary person, I flitter between how I want to be perceived quite a lot. & some people don't quite get what non-binary is. It can be very confusing for people.
Since I came out & really identified with myself (about four years, five years ago now) I've had a lot of interesting . . . I say interesting, I suppose traumatising is a better word, experiences. & some very visceral reactions, (mostly from men) when I'm out & about. I noticed that I had just allowed myself to get ruled by that fear, & that I was subconsciously dressing down whenever I was going out. It was starting to really impact me mentally, & I was wearing a lot less makeup than I'd want to.
I think I just put up that status more, I guess, for myself, to try & put it out into words - saying that even if I am scared, it's so much better for me to just dress how I want to dress & be perceived how I want to be perceived, than to be living in fear & going along as is.
When I say it out loud, I guess it sounds a bit extreme, but it does feel very intimidating going out in public, being a gender fluid, non-binary person - I think people always prefer it when people fit into boxes. I'm very bad at doing that.
“Even if I am scared - it’s better for me to dress how I want to dress than be living in fear”
🎀 I totally feel you - it's that perceived threat. As a woman I'm always having to address a certain way. For women there's always a potential there of attack, but for someone that people want to box into initially a male category - you're possibly going to get beaten up right? Like, that's the threat.
That minimisation starts to take a toll eventually. It's like you're not able to express yourself . . .
So, I've got disabilities. & at a certain point I realised - I never wanted to take disabled seats & things like that because I look healthy or what have you. But then at some point, I thought - if not me, then who? If I don't sit in these seats & have conversations with people about the fact that some disabilities are invisible - then it's never going to get normalised.
Do you find something similar & empowering in starting to be more visible in how you express yourself? That you're starting to challenge those concepts & helping to normalise having a more non-binary expression?
Yeah, definitely. I resonate with you with as well, because I'm autistic too. So I have the thing of the invisible disability, quote, unquote.
I totally understand that - it's really hard to want to use those assets when it's not necessarily something that's visibly able to be used. In terms of being non-binary - it's been a unique thing for me, especially because I choose to have a beard. I choose to have certain aspects of me that men would see as being a very masculine thing. It’s very open for me - non-binaryness works very well with my autism, because I just don't see gender as a thing. It just doesn't make sense to me.
The idea that people should have to wear a certain thing or not doesn't really make sense to me.
I think the thing I've noticed the most is that the majority of reactions come from men. I don't want to say it's like it's always been, but it predominantly is, unfortunately. I think it's because gender is such a strong moral compass for a lot of people. There's a lot of rules that govern people's lives. So when someone like me comes along & I'll be openly wearing pink/pink dungarees, or wearing different coloured nail varnish than just black, or wearing makeup that isn't just goth makeup - suddenly that starts to challenge the perceptions for people.
It's a fascinating thing to see how people do react to it, because there'll be some people that will come with a lot of curiosity. & in those times, I'll find it to be interesting. Even if people say the wrong things, or, call me a man, or whatever to start with - as long as they're coming from a point of curiosity, then I have a lot of time for it. But then there’ll be times . . quite often to be honest, I get called a pedophile, which seems to be the most interesting reaction I get from people for some reason.
There’s something about men - men just see me with a beard & pink, & they just think ‘you want to touch kids’ - it's so bizarre.
🎀 Yeah, like, so bizarre. But then, even more important to be challenging these ideals. Because it's where people are connecting really random dots & things like that - that it’s important to be able to start to normalise a less enforced construction of identity.
Do you find it taxing? I find people come up to me a lot because I dress like a maniac. Because I'm autistic as well I find it particularly draining sometimes. I'm just trying to be out, & I just like to dress like a weirdo. I don't need people taking my photo everywhere I go & to have to explain myself constantly. Does that become tiring?
Yeah, completely! & I don't know if you feel the same as well - but the thing is it doesn't feel weird to me. it's just weird to everybody else!
When I was younger, I would dress a bit more ‘flamboyantly’ I guess you would call it - in a goth way. I would get a lot of attention & then I'd hate the idea that I’d get it. & I still do now! but I understand it a bit more. People would always say ‘why would you dress like that if you don't want people staring at you?’. It’s because it feels normal to me. I'd rather wonder why everyone else ISN’T dressing like this.
“It feels normal to me. I’d rather wonder why everyone else ISN’T dressing like this”
🎀 Yeah! It's like everyone fits into this tiny box of ‘this is how things are’ & they don't realize that that's just a fake cage around them & they can do anything they want.
Sometimes, when I think about people going through a trans journey, I feel like, for me, if I was to have to wear jeans & a black hoodie every day - it would feel like I was being strangled by a fake skin. I can only imagine that's what it's like to be trans - where you’re being forced into this stupid fake suit every day that's not you.
But again that's more ‘people like to be able to fit things into boxes’. Whereas with the non-binary friends that I have, it seems to be more of a journey of creating your own unique blend. So you're trialling different things & then putting them together. Almost creating your own mosaic of identity & who you are.
What's your journey been like? Was there a point where you were wanting to go really femme & then you've stripped it into something that's a bit more of a combination? How has it come together for you?
Yeah, it's pretty much how you've described it, really! & it's still a journey now.
📸 : @somerstownglen
I've been quite slow with it, transitioning over in terms of using different clothes. I think the blessing for me has been having Victim Unit & genderisthebastard as a way of me almost having an excuse & a place that I know I'll be safe to dress up in those ways. Because if we're being booked onto a gig - we don't play with people that aren't going to be accepting of us. So that's beautiful. I think that's why music is so important for us - because we're going to a space where we know we're going to be safe.
I've been able to use those opportunities to explore how I dress. Because going out in the general public . . . I'm anxious & full of anxiety enough as it is. So I find it hard. Especially non-binary is incredibly challenging because there's not a rule book per se, like there is for men & women.
I had a point when I went very hyper feminine - buying lots of pink & trying to get lots of different skirts & different coloured dungarees. & now I'm at this point when I'm trying to combine the two together - there's points when I do just want to wear all black & masc stuff. I've got a very chameleon attitude with myself. I like to mix things up on the day.
I just really enjoy that aspect of being non-binary. Suddenly all of the rule books have gone away. There's no such thing as mens clothes, womens clothes. It's just ‘what do I fancy wearing today? I'm gonna wear like a traditional masculine looking outfit, but then a full face of makeup, because that's what makes me feel good today’. Or the other way, it doesn't really matter.
There are a few things that can be quite daunting in that respect. Mainly the social aspects of it. But then I'm autistic, so I struggle with what I should wear socially anyway. Do you have that thing as well? Of just not really knowing what's appropriate to wear in certain places?
🎀 Massively! but also just not caring because I think it's stupid. Like, why do I have to wear this stupid thing?
I'm starting a fashion label this year & one of the things that I've never understood is hierarchies of fabric. So I'm always questioning things like ‘why is silk somehow sexy when it's just a fabric the same as wool? & why can't you wear certain laces without it having connotations when it could just be everyday wear? I don't really get that.
I don't know whether it’s the AMAB brain but when you’ve said that they have connotations - that blew my mind. Like the idea you can wear certain things & it means something, it's like, fuck 🤯
🎀 yeah. It's like, such a weird thing. Well . . . all of society is wrong & we're right is what I'm trying to say.
All the best people are autistic, obviously
🎀 100% & then I don't know anyone that isn't autistic, so that's fine.
I think some of this has to do with the shaping of society. When I look back to the 80s, we had androgyny & things like that. But that did seem more like ‘Oh, she's a woman, but she's dressing masc’. It wasn't quite the right fit. Whereas non-binary feels like such a more beautiful term.
Did not having that kind of language (which has only really been around for a little while) impact you in any way, or hold back your ability to understand yourself & how you wanted to express?
Yeah, definitely. I've said multiple times recently & over the last few years that if I knew what non-binary was when I was a kid it would have connected so many more dots for me. & the same with awareness of anything in general. Like queer-wise - because the only knowledge I had of it was when I was searching for stuff myself.
But I did have a very unique blessing with my parents. My mother especially is a very, very accepting & open-minded person. She would always buy me action men & like the little mermaid if I asked for them. As a joke when I came out & told her, she said ‘Well, you always played with a little mermaid & an action man. So it makes sense’.
I think it would have helped me a lot. I don't know if you get this, but I know it's a thing a lot with trans people - I see these young queer people, they're fucking 17/18 & they know they’re non-binary. & I'm like ‘God, fuck imagine having all that time’.
🎀 yeah, to just be a person. I mean, part of me, when I see that, I feel so excited! because I think our generation has been helping move things on so that people at that age aren't going to have to go through as much strife around this stuff.
But again, similarly, something you've just touched on there. All my neurodivergence was diagnosed late. & part of you feels like ‘oh, there's so many years of my life that are kind of robbed where I would have lived differently. & maybe I could have been a fuller version of myself by now’.
Do you feel that same way with with having non-binary representation? that you've been robbed of that ability a little bit?
Yeah, definitely.
I think when my depression gets bad, that's the one. But at least I can look at it now & be like, ‘well, I'm only 36 this year. I've still got the rest of my life.’ I mean, there's some people that don't realize their identity till they're in their 50s, 60s so I'm very privileged in that respect. I've still got a good amount of my life left in me.
Did you come out as queer & find your identity, quite a lot later in life as well?
🎀 I feel like, for me, this is gonna sound really privileged, but it wasn't something I questioned. I guess because of neurodivergence - I just felt like ‘I am who I am’. So with queerness - I feel like I didn't struggle to the degree that maybe I should have, or everyone else did, because I've always kind of been off doing my own thing. & not really caring too much.
Oh, no, no. That's interesting because I've had the other way. I was diagnosed autistic at the age of four. My autism affected me really heavily, (more as a child than it does now) & mainly the only reason I wasn’t in residential care is because my parents were willing to do a lot of work to support me & to know how to look after an autistic kid. So I have a lot of privilege in that respect.
But then in terms of queer identity & all of that stuff - I spent a lot of my 20s & my childhood just trying to survive. So I never really had an opportunity to properly explore that. But it's funny looking back now & realising how much of the stuff that I would beat myself up over. If I knew about queerness then . . . because I used to always feel like ‘I'm not a real man. I don't know how to be a man. I don't think a man is right. I don't know what this is’.
But then learning about non-binary just clicked so many things for me & I suddenly realised ‘well, yeah, of course, I'm not a man. Never been a man, & I don't identify as one, & it doesn't make sense to me’. It's almost like that one piece slots everything else into place so much more easily, because you're not trying to find identity.
& I'd look back at all the things that I did or didn’t do in the past - how I'd always wanted to have my hair a certain way, but then I didn't because that was too feminine. I didn't want people to think of me as that. Realising I had all these insecurities & would beat myself up over being too sensitive. Which, again, it’s sad that I couldn't be a man & also feel those things. But I'm also glad that I know that I'm not a man in that respect.
🎀 Yeah, because, I mean, that's a whole other body of work isn't it around ‘men should be able to feel those things as well’ & that's where a lot of the toxicity comes from. But there's a big element there of self hatred as well, right? I've definitely experienced this in my life, it's like, you feel like something's right for you, but then you push against it, & you make yourself feel bad & beat yourself up for wanting that.
& some of that is just internalised bullshit. I'd say, with me at least, some of those things haven't necessarily been external expectations or beliefs, it's just been me fighting against myself. It’s almost like you don’t feel like you deserve to be happy, right?
Yeah, definitely, that ties in with the depression & it all grabs on to it.
🎀 So it sounds like your mum has been amazing, & your dad's been really supportive with neurodivergence & things like that. Have there been any other external things that have happened or been said to you around non-binary identity that have impacted you or held you back in any way?
Definitely. I mean, there's a song that I wrote with genderisthebastard called ‘I was called a faggot’, which is basically all my different experiences of having just random people shouting at me or calling me certain things. It had just got to a point that I felt like I was stifling myself purely for survival. When really, as horrible & stressful as it is for people to just shout faggot at me in the street or to cross over the road so they don't have to come near me - for all of the pressures & all of the shit that that gives me - it still feels better to be who I am.
There was definitely a period where I was letting that get to me so much. Ironically, it wasn't really what's been said, but it would be mothers shielding their children from me. That'd be the ones that would impact me deeply because that's not just a guy shouting at you. That's someone fearing for their child. & then you feel like ‘what are you afraid is going to happen to your child’?
🎀 Just by me existing right? Literally, just from them seeing me.
Yeah, just from being near me in the vicinity. It's like, ‘oh God, what's the fear? Am I gonna touch this kid? Am I going to influence this kid in some way?’ & it's those that are the ones that I think really I internalised for a while.
& I had to just try & push past that & remember the fact that, yes, maybe that mother thinks that way, but the kid might not, & the kid might see me & think like I've done in the past - seeing people dressed in the way that I dress now & going ‘wow, I wish I could do that!’.
🎀 & in another way, you're an emboldened champion for them, right? where they're seeing what they could be, despite their horrid mother.
yeah. & the sad thing about it is - I'll never call somebody stupid, but it'll be the people that just haven’t maybe been educated, or haven't been talked to about this sort of stuff.
🎀 People fear what they don't understand, right?
Yeah, completely. Or that's what they've been told to fear like they do with trans & non-binary people in general right now. Because, like you were saying, we challenge the status quo as queer people. It's that baseline thing that if you can start thinking you don't have to wear certain things in a certain way, then suddenly you start thinking about everything else, & go ‘well, why is this like this?’.
It's no coincidence that the large majority of queer people are leftist. Although to be inclusive, I know that there are, unfortunately, right wing queer people & they're weirdos. I don't understand it at all.
🎀 well, yeah, exactly, because it's like, you're repressed, & yet you're siding with your oppressor.
Yeah, honestly, the cognitive dissonance there you must go through to be a full on National Socialist queer person. I don't even know how.
🎀 But you're right that that's why it's so revolutionary. Because you are visibly in the world being something that challenges the structure & framework that is dominant. Which again, makes it so much more important.
It's mind blowing to me. Because for me, if I saw someone like you, or a trans person, I'd be like, ‘Oh, thank God’. & I'd be crossing the street to be on the same side as that person so I felt safe. It’s wild to me that people would have the opposite. Especially because, I don't know, all of our identities are so cute.
When you said earlier that you felt women were generally less weird around you. I was wondering, do you think that's still miscategorizing you? Because I imagine those women are just assuming you're a gay guy, so they're still not understanding your gender/you're still being misgendered in that scenario, it's just less abrasive.
Yeah, definitely. I know I’ve put up a bit of a barrier for myself with being misgendered because it just happens so often. I think if I did take it to heart as much as I could do, it would drive me insane.
& also I have quite a sympathetic thing with older generations. While I don't condone or will not withstand any deliberate misgendering, I'm not going to expect a 90 year old person to understand that I'm called they. But it is quite tiring . . .
The thing I find the most tiring is how a lot of men will never call me Danny. It's always Dan. Because, for some reason, men are incapable of calling anyone anything that's more than one syllable - which I always find fascinating.
🎀 It’s because men are brought up in this culture to not have to work hard for things Danny. That's why. (jokes)
Yeah, literally, & even then it'll be like, ‘it's one extra syllable, my guy’.
🎀 So yeah, I guess we've danced around it in lots of different ways. But is there anything you wish people would do differently to support around gender expression, maybe in the world, or for kids growing up?
Oh god. I mean, the biggest one would be just leave us the fuck alone!
There's been a few really nice people that have said things to me where they've been like, ‘Oh, I just get so scared about talking to queer people because I just don't want to misgender them'. & you know, I don't want people to go & have to read a book about gender, or understand the stuff/read all the stuff that I read, because that's what I had to do for me. You don't have to do that. You’ve just got to accept me as me & leave me the fuck alone.
That's all I need from people. Even people that find it weird, fair enough. If you live in a bubble that small that you don’t like seeing someone wearing a colour other than the traditional colours that men, quote, unquote, ‘should’ wear. Fine, cool, that's fine. You can be weirded out. But just leave me alone.
Just don't give me weird stares. Don't feel that you have to come up to me & ask such weird intrusive questions. If they're interesting questions or you're actually, genuinely curious, then, yeah, go ahead. But I don't want people to feel like they have to have read an essay on being non-binary.
“You’ve just got to accept me as me & leave me the fuck alone”
🎀 Yeah, you've got to be caring & understanding. I totally feel that. & then there's also something in the emotional labor of you know, if you start chatting to someone, & then gender/identity or clothing comes up, then fine. But at least with me, people just launch at me with questions about what I'm wearing with no foreground to the conversation.
It feels bad to say, because I know they're doing it from a place of heart, but - it's not a compliment. When someone's like, ‘Oh, you're so brave’, it's like, I know & I don't want to be.
🎀 Yeah. Can you just make it so that I don't have to be this brave because it should be fucking normal.
The only reason right now that I have some semblance of being safe is because I'm white & that's fucked, but that's a whole other conversation.
🎀 Yeah, 100%!
Okay, so last question & most importantly - how does it feel to be able to express yourself fully & be who you are in the world? If you could describe it, how does it feel to be fully you now?
It's like a puzzle piece that has been missing for ages. I didn't get that, I don't know if people really do when they finally fully transition, that blossoming, kind of butterfly feeling. I didn't feel like I had that, but it'd be the little things of - I'd suddenly wake up one day & go ‘I'm just gonna wear this & this, & not think about why, or if I should, & just go, oh, that's really nice’.
Or I've gone out & someone has said ‘oh, they look really good today’ or ‘your make-up is really pretty’. & I would feel ‘oh wow, this is the validation of it’. The nicest thing is when I tell people how I used to not identify as queer, & they’re like ‘God, yeah, imagine, how were you not queer?’
It's amazing how it just slots a part of me into a part of me that I've realised I had not understood for so long. Now looking back on it, this conversation has been really nice to actually reflect on, it's incredible at this point thinking about how I haven't thought about that shit for so long - it's really nice.
🎀 Yeah, it's like, you're not having to tear yourself apart every time you're getting dressed every day. Honestly, it sounds like it just feels very aligned & grounded. & then being out in the world, you're feeling fully seen & accepted - at least within the circles that we we move around in.
📸 : @somerstownglen
Checkout the full episode of our Rumour Has It podcast with Danny here:
💞 Yapper: ethereal.void.404
📸 : Glen Pearson of Somerstown Film
